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(Actually) In Conversation with: Wael Abbas

Contributed by Sarika Arya and Meredith Morrison

The first time we tried to interview the internationally famous Egyptian blogger, Wael Abbas (WA), he was returning from a conference on global interdependence on Sweden. A week later, back in Egypt (and with a vengeance to blog), Wael sat down with the YJHR. His style is not to complain. It is to expose, clarify, provoke and, ultimately, inspire. He's pretty good at it - especially the provoking part.

Q: Why do you blog?

WA: I blog because I am. This is going to sound cliché but no that’s not the answer. I blog because I – well I started blogging for totally different reasons but then I discovered another reason. I have a voice and I wanted this voice to be heard. I wanted to discuss issues that weren’t discussed in the traditional media about religion, society, politics, stuff like that. That’s how it started. But afterwards, I decided that I’m blogging for change. I want change in this country. At least I want to leave a little impact, make a small change in three specific areas which are: the civil society, political parties, and the media.



Q: Who accesses your blog? Is it banned anywhere in Egypt? I read an article in which the reporter indicated that some blogs are banned to certain business and publications (like news outlets), according to a "state security apparatus"?

WA: It’s banned in China, that’s what I heard, but it’s not banned in Egypt. Well, they used to use this policy before 2005. They used to block some blogs and websites. This was mostly for the radical Islamists like the Muslim Brotherhood. But not anymore; sometime they block websites, but only tactically, for one day, or two days, or a few hours. Like on the 6th of April where they blocked Facebook for only one day, the day of the general strike. Other than that, they have other ways that they attack blogs to get them shut down or report them to the hosts, saying they have a lot of inappropriate material. They did that with my YouTube account, my Facebook account, my email – they’ve shut down my email several times, like five times.


Q: Why? Are they allowed to know what’s in your email?

WA: They don’t have that technology yet, but there is a technology called packet inspection – they can inspect every single packet of data that comes into or out of your computer. I think the Chinese are doing that but I’m not sure the Egyptians are doing it yet.

But this is not the only way they attack bloggers; I can tell you about other ways – they’re not only electronic. They arrest them and torture them, like the owner of the Facebook group of the strike. They target reputations; this is what they’ve been doing about me for some time, spreading rumors saying I’ve converted to Christianity or I am a homosexual or something like that.


Q: Is that what happened last week at the airport?

WA: No, what happened at the airport was a direct attack. Well, I traveled a lot in the last three years, like my passport was almost full, and I’d never been in a situation similar to this one. I took a late flight from Stockholm, and there was a short time transit in Frankfurt, then I took a flight to Cairo. In Cairo, I arrived in the airport, in Terminal 3 at around 3:00 am. So as you can imagine I was really exhausted, tired, hadn’t slept, hadn’t eaten. I also took a bus right from Talberg to Stockholm for four hours. When I arrived in Cairo, I thought, “I am finally home.”

So I approached the passport control desk, and I gave them my passport, and one of them he checked my passport on the computer, and he asked me these questions: “Do they always stop you when you arrive in Cairo?” I said, “No, it has never happened before.” And he said, “But this time you’re going to have to stay for a while.” So I said, “Okay.” I thought would be five minutes or something like that. So I waited. One hour, two hours, three hours, and nobody is telling me what is going on. And they stopped other people, like people with big beards, people who came from Yemen, but they let them go after five or ten minutes until I was the only one who was staying there.

I kept asking questions, but nobody would give me any answers, until one of them told me discreetly: “Your passport is, at the moment, with State Security.” When I asked, “Why?” he told me, “I don’t know, I’m not with State Security; I’m just with passport control.”

So I waited and kept asking the officers for my passport back, but they wouldn’t give it back to me. So I decided to start a sit-in. I took a big piece of paper out of my bag and wrote, “THIS IS A SIT-IN; STATE SECURITY TOOK MY PASSPORT,” and I sat on the floor and faced people coming from the planes. And at first they were ignoring that, but then it started to piss them off, after a while one of them started trying to persuade me to end this, and then he started harassing me, saying, “This isn’t good. It’s going to end up ugly.”

I told him, “I know my rights. What I’m doing, according to the laws and institutions, is right.”

So they told me, “Just end the sit-in and we’ll give you back your passport.” And I said, “No, give me back my passport first and I’ll end it.” They brought my passport back to me after 5 minutes.

So I passed the passport control and went to the baggage carousel to get my bag but unfortunately my bag had disappeared; it had been over four hours at this point, and somebody had moved it. I asked a guy at the airport what I should do and he said to exit customs and go to Lufthansa and ask them for your bag. So I went through the customs, but they stopped me and said, “No, just wait here and we’ll get it for you.”

I waited for two hours, and he pretended they were trying to get my bag. During this time, they had my passport with them, and they wouldn’t give it back to me. And they kept talking to each other discreetly, like kneeling with each other and saying something I could not hear, until suddenly they tell me, “Okay, now we have to search your bag.” I was carrying this laptop bag of mine.

They started searching the bag. At first, I thought it was a joke – they took out every single thing that was in the bag, no matter how small, like the medicine. They kept asking me questions about the medicine and talking about the medicine. Then they took all the conference papers to a room inside, and I don’t know what they did with that, but I suspect they were photocopying the papers. They took out my camera and the laptop and put it inside.

Eventually, they brought back the papers and the camera and asked me to go inside for something similar to a strip search. I went inside and they searched every pocket of my clothes and almost every curve of my body. He took my wallet out and searched everything inside my wallet – credit cards, ID cards, driver’s license, stuff like that – and then put everything back in the wallet. This is something that is really weird for customs people to do; they’re supposed to be looking for goods.

They gave me back my passport and my wallet, but they told me they had to keep my laptop because they want to show it to this agency we have here, which is responsible for copyright software and piracy and stuff like that. But this is totally irregular. They never do this to anybody, never to me before; I’ve flown hundreds of times and they’ve never done this to me.

And I said that taking my laptop was illegal, and I know it’s illegal, and I know by customs law that I am entitled to carry one laptop for personal use, and they cannot take it away from me, and they can’t make me pay customs for it, and they’re not authorized to open it or inspect the software inside unless they have approval from a judge. But still, they insisted they are not giving me back my laptop, so I sat there for two or three hours more demanding my laptop back, but they refused. I demanded to talk to the head of customs, and, after negotiating, he told me, “We have orders from a higher entity, and we cannot give you back your laptop.”

After this, I decided that staying in the airport was useless, so I decided to leave. I met friends who were waiting for me outside, met lawyers, and we went to Lufthansa to look for the bag. And they obviously knew about my bag, they knew my full name, and the whole situation. They told me my bag was with storage in the other Terminal, in Terminal 2. So I went to this other company that is supposed to be handling the baggage, and they told me that you need permissions to go to the storage room to get your bag back.

We had to go through a lot of red tape to get permission to get my bag, and during the process there was a permission that was supposed to be from state security. This one alone took 2 hours. They claimed that they have my name on the list that belonged to State Security. This list of the names, was totally new. It was never there before, they never had reason to stop me.

I finally managed to get the permission and got my bag back and then I filed a report in the police station about the illegal detention and confiscation of my laptop, which I didn’t get back till now.


Q: Why do you think that this happened to you?

WA: I don’t know, but I have inside information from the state that says that somebody filed a report about me from Sweden that I said stuff that was harmful to the Egyptian government state. But I know for sure that there were two people from the National Democratic Party that were there.


Q: Was it something you said – what kind of stuff?

WA: I said a lot of stuff, of course. I criticized the regime and I criticized the European position on our regime. I said that it was hypocritical that they know what the regime does to the opposition but they are aiding this regime and this is totally different from their approach to the “iron curtain” or the Eastern bloc during the Soviet Era... so this is probably what pissed of the National Democratic Party.


Q: Is that what you blog about – what do you blog about?

WA: I blog about that and other stuff too. Stuff that doesn’t get enough coverage in media.


Q: Why do you think this happened this time?

WA: I don’t know. I think there is a state of panic in state security right now. I think something is going on. I don’t know why but they have arrested people in the Muslim Brotherhood – maybe President Mubarak is dying. I think they are preparing a military tribunal for the Muslim Brotherhood, something similar to what they did last year. [Last year], they sent some Muslim Brotherhood members to jail accusing them of funding an organization or something like that – terrorist attacks, an illegal organization, stuff like that.


Q: How do you find your material?

WA: In the beginning all the material I got was mine. They were like pictures I took myself, videos I took myself. But after I started gaining some credibility people started sending me their old material: stuff they shot on the street or stuff that leaked out from police stations. People sent me videos of train accidents, terrorist attacks, car accidents.


Q: How did you get into blogging?

WA: I was always interested in journalism, ever since I was a kid I was reading opposition papers. I was interested in this new experience, because it was new in the 70s. It was new in the reign of Sadat. I always felt there was something missing from this opposition in independent media. I wanted to work in media but I found out its hard, you have to know somebody in a good position in order to get a job. So I quit for a while until I saw the potentiality of the Internet back in 1994. You’re able to interact with people from other countries in long distance, you can be anonymous and discuss anything freely in censorship. It all started actually in chat rooms, then forums, then reading groups, then electronic newspapers, which I wrote articles for and sent to. Then in 2004 I took the major turn and decided to start my own blog, because there was a lot of activity in the Egyptian state and I felt like they were not getting enough coverage in the traditional media, even from the opposition. So I decided to go to these police stations and take my camera and do interviews and my own stuff and put it on my own blog. The blog enabled me to post, photos videos, and links provide technology.


Q: Have you ever been scared to blog? (Especially because of the potential consequences?)

WA: Not really.


Q: Have you ever censored yourself?

WA: Maybe when there is something that doesn’t have to do with politics or the rights of people. If it is a personal scandal of somebody I abstain from posting it.


Q: Do you censor comments from people?

WA: Yes.


Q: Why?

WA: Because they are personal and offensive. I am my own authority, I am proud of that. I will be a fascist. I would never take a government position. I keep away from that because I know that I have a fascist quality.


Q: It seems that you’re suspicious of many people, professions, and things in general – who or what do you trust?

WA: I’m not suspicious!


Q: Okay, well you seem to find faults in a lot of things. What profession do you find most admirable? Journalism?

WA: Journalism has been really a dirty job in Egypt for fifty years now. Journalism is not honest at all its only after advertising and power and stuff like that. I hate that.


Q: So then what job is honest? What about human rights activists can you find something wrong with them?

WA: Yes, of course! Of course! There are people who dealing with double standards. Like human rights who don’t recognize the rights of gay and homosexuals, and people who don’t recognize the rights of people from other religions like Bahai’s. You have people like that in your Council. Don’t write that down it will piss of [your boss]. And you have people who do it to make money, there is a lot of money in human rights. Donations. They put in their pockets.


Q: So what is the admirable profession for you? What can change the world?

WA: Any profession you do with love and honesty and you are willing to serve people with. This is the profession I respect, even if it is a garbage collector.


Q: How do you react when Yahoo, Youtube, and Facebook close your accounts?

WA: I complain against them.


Q: How does that happen? Like why does Facebook shut off your account?

WA: Google and Facebook cooperate with the regime, which I know for sure they are. Or they get false reports like people reporting me for spamming or posting violent material or abusive photos or like kinky sexual stuff. Like I have videos of torture: the police officers who shot the videos of torture took pleasure in shooting them.


Q: Why do you think this happens specifically in Egyptian society – like what is going on the police officer’s brain?

WA: We have been living under a tyrannical dictatorial military regime for over 50 years. And this has empowered and enforced the position of army officers and police officers at the same time. They have unlimited power so they feel like gods. The motto of the police used to be, “The police are in the service of the people.” But now they changed it so that now it is, “The police and the people are in the service of the nation,” – whatever the hell that means. And by the way they give courses in police academy to be arrogant or to be superior to people. They tell them not to take public transportation like the ordinary people.

The soldiers are paid very little but the police officers are very good. And they have lots of good stuff: a good pension, good health care. They can buy cars, apartments, they have touristic villages where they spend the summer with the families, they have these like five star hospitals. So they are basically being bribed to be like the guard dogs of the regime. But the soldiers of course are basically being paid pennies.


Q: What is your relationship with the American government like? We heard that you have a certain relationship with the American government.

WA: Yeah I have relations with the CIA, FBI, MI5.


Q: Are you making fun of us?

WA: Of course.


Q: So, can you be honest?

WA: [Laughs.] No I don’t have any relationships with anybody. I go on scholarships and training programs that are organized by the civil society. Nothing to do at all with any government.


Q: So what do you think about the American government? This is something of interest to us, because we’re Americans.

WA: Would your government hire people like me or pay people like me? Do you really think so?


Q: Well yeah, because you’re exposing the humanitarian face of your country. You’re an insider with access to all this material. Look, we’re basically trying to find out if you’re a spy.

WA: Is that doing any good to the American administration? Like exposing the Egyptian regime or exposing Egyptian torture? Are you planning to invade my country and am I helping you? Are you angry with Mubarak are you going to impeach him?

GIVE ME A BREAK! The US government is sleeping with Mubarak in the same bed! I get stopped at the American airports every single time that I arrive and depart there.

(Q): I mean to be honest, that might not have anything to do with your profession, but because you’re coming from the Middle East. Right? And because you’re Arab… America has a policy of discriminating against certain people so… okay clearly you don’t seem very impressed with American politics because they’re “sleeping with the regime.”

W: No, they’re very hypocritical. Sometimes they are supporting the regime. I refuse this kind of support. I consider it interference. It is hypocritical because they are supporting my country just to save face but on the other hand they are handing millions and billions to our regime.


Q: Right, but in America it would be very very rare, especially under Barack Obama, for someone to be detained for blogging. There is a pretty well respected policy for freedom of speech, at least under President Obama.

WA: I don’t think so, I don’t think so. So far, Barack Obama has not been doing anything about freedom of speech in other countries.


Q: Do you think that there is censorship in America?

WA: There is censorship in America because the media is controlled by a few corporations. There’s very little effective private media not like in the 70s. After Reagan came to power these corporations are buying all of the local stations and newspaper making them all a part of one huge network; turning into one network abiding by one policy. So censorship is very easy.


Q: We read on your blog that you basically compared Barack Obama to the Muslim Brotherhood.

WA: Well yeah, because he was, like, addressing the religious sentiment of the people not their mind, not their thoughts. So it is basically the same thing; reciting verses from the Koran and reciting the hadiths [oral stories] of the prophet. Oh my God. What the hell? Is he going to fool me like reciting stuff that? What is he thinking? What is he thinking? Yeah, there are some people who will be fooled by stuff like that but not me. Not the people like me who use their minds. Not the liberals, not the secularists, not the leftists.


Q: Well, that’s a valid point but don’t you think that some people might respond by saying that there is a religious –

WA: Fuck that. I don’t want that. I want that to be eliminated actually. I want a civil state.


Q: But don’t you think you can have a civil state with religion? You don’t think so?

WA: We can have a state with religion, but for everyone to be free to be able to practice their own religion. They are arresting Shia Muslims, because they don’t accept that there are Shia Muslims. They are arresting Christians, and they are persecuting Baha’is.


Q: So, did you watch Obama’s speech? Or did you attend it?

WA: I was there yeah.


Q: You weren’t one of the people in the back screaming “I love Obama!” where you?

WA: [Laughs] No. I was sitting next to someone who loves Obama. He is a famous actor actually.


Q: Were you appalled by him [the actor]?

WA: Everyone is free and entitled to his own opinion. He loves Obama, he was happy that Obama was there and recited verses from the Koran as if it’s adding honor to the Koran. Some people have this mentality. Some people need to be slapped in the face for thinking this way. It feels like there is this ugly old woman that men don’t approach at all, and then suddenly a man started flirting with her. (The Muslim world is the ugly old woman.)


Q: For you, what would be the ideal way for America to approach Muslim politics?


WA: I’d like America to start addressing mentality, to stop dealing with double standards, to stop aiding tyrants and dictators.


Q: What do you mean by “addressing mentality”?

WA: In the Cold War, there was a whole different approach towards the Eastern bloc and the Soviet Union and a lot of criticism in the media. I don’t see that anywhere at all in the Muslim media. Saudi Arabia is the biggest ally of the United States and the biggest funder of terrorism in the world. It is building schools in the jungles of Africa, in the jungles of southern Thailand, and the border of Pakistan and Afghanistan. This is where the Taliban came from. This is where the people who explode embassies come from. From these schools. And all of these schools have pictures of the King Abdullah, the king of Saudi Arabia, and his son. The United States always yields to pressure from Saudi Arabia. Hollywood bows to pressure from Saudi Arabia- all the time, the perception of Arabs in the media. They want to sell the most movies in the Gulf countries, the oil- rich countries. So they rarely attack Saudi Arabia, and the traditions, and the religion there.


Q: Do you vote in your country?

WA: No, because we don’t have voting. We don’t have real elections.


Q: A lot Egyptians are very impressed by Obama –

WA: Because he looks like us. He is the first black guy to be president and so he is the embodiment of a dream. We want something similar here in Egypt like where anyone can be president of the country.


Q: We met a taxi driver who like Obama because he thought he was Muslim.

WA: Some people are ignorant stupid people and think he’s a Muslim


Q: So, you’re not impressed by Obama?

WA: I was impressed by Obama before he came to power, but when he started giving those stupid speeches like he thinks he’s smart, and he thinks he’s fooling people around the world. I don’t like it. I’m simple, I’m not like him. He’s patronizing people around the world.


Q: So who is your favorite political leader in the entire world?

WA: Anwar Sadat, Mahatma Gandhi.


Q: Someone who is alive? If you had to choose – someone with real power, so you can’t say the Queen of England.

WA: No, I don’t like her. I hate monarchies. How about that guy – what’s his name? The guy who was in prison? … Nelson Mandela.


Q: Okay but someone who is in power RIGHT now.

WA: NONE! Really! No country is perfect; even Sweden, even Norway, even Finland- even those countries that have those kinds of democracies because they have their own problems. So nobody is perfect. I can only choose from the dead, from the people who are no longer in power because I can see their achievements and their contributions to politics. So these are the only people I can judge.


Q: Why did you turn down a meeting with President Bush in 2008? It was an opportunity to talk to a political leader.

WA: I wanted to talk to him as a journalist, but not as an activist that he was supporting because he was not. Bush was like leaving office and he wanted to give a message like okay I was supporting these movements. He was using me, and not just me, others too! People from South America, from former Soviet Republics. All these people praised Bush, and I was expected to do that? HELL NO. I was offered to meet Rice in 2007 and I refused that. I also hated people who met with Hilary Clinton. I don’t believe in meeting with officials from any government, especially like controversial figures. I can meet with the Prime Minister or President of Israel but only as a journalist or as an interviewer. That’s it.


Q: If you had the opportunity to tell Mubarak anything, what would it be?

WA: Lots of bad things. Lots of very horrible, horrible, nasty, ugly, obscene stuff you know. I cannot think of anything rational that I would say.


Q: If you don’t believe in working through the established method of power, then how do things get change?

WA: Things are going to change if they change their ways. The government are not fighting for their rights or to do the things they are supposed to do. If we accept censorship and security then civil society must accept all of the regulations that are forced upon them.


Q: When you say no to these meetings, do you ever feel like you are missing an opportunity to tell government officials what you think?

WA: No. I can say whatever I want through the media and through meeting with other people from civil society. The governments are working only for their own interests.


Q: What’s the best way to rule a country?

WA: By the people themselves. I believe in democracy, but I believe in enlightened democracy. People should be aware first. I don’t want people to choose Mubarak. I don’t want people to choose Hamas. I don’t want people to choose Taliban. I don’t want people to choose businessmen because they bribe them. I don’t want people to choose someone because they are oppressing them. I hate people who use people, who use democracy for their own interests. I want people to be able to realize that democracy is for their own good and they shouldn’t give it up for bribe, for a promise, for anything- just because these guys are religious, or having religious sentiment. People should think before they vote.


Q: Who has influence on you? Any writers, intellectuals, or political theorists?

WA: Charles Dickens and the x-ray machine. The x-ray machine because it doesn’t provide a cure. Some people accuse me of not providing solutions. That’s what Charles dickens and the x-ray machine do. Like, Charles Dickens was like pointing his fingers at the problems of society, the problem with institutions, the British institutions, the abuse of children and women, but he never gave answers to that. But eventually the British society was able to reform itself, to reform its institutions. So, I don’t have to provide answers. I don’t have answers. There are other people to think about it. I can only point out the problem. I point it for people to solve it.

I’ll give you an example. I published a video of torture inside a police station, of a truck driver who was physically sodomized with a stick. The video was circulated for over a year and the people didn’t care, they were so apathetic. They exchanged the video as if weird or absurd, not a crime that needed to be reported. I took this video and I posted it on my blog and I made a scandal out of it, and I said somebody should do something about it. And it was taken to court and the officer sentenced to jail. So people have a problem in awareness. People don’t know what is a crime and what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. Police torture was acceptable for a long time and now it’s not because people are talking about it. And I didn’t propose a solution but it’s better now. The problem is not totally solved, but the people became aware. They came forward, and they became more use to exposing that kind of torture.


Q: What do you think is the biggest humanitarian problem facing Egypt today?

WA: The biggest is a collection of all of these. I cannot say that there is a specific main problem. There is a problem of awareness – awareness of many things –people’s awareness of their own rights: what is right to do, what is right not to do, what is right to choose, what is not right to choose. So it is, basically, awareness.


Q: Do you think it’s the same for the rest of the world as well?

WA: Maybe so. This is something that our leaders and government and media and businessmen exploited. They know how to exploit very well. This is the thing that frightens me.


Q: When did you realize you were being exploited and how?

WA: After I graduated. Well, the government was like having all this propaganda all the time on television that the youth are not doing anything, that the youth are worthless and useless, that they are only into drugs. And they never thought of empowering them. And I always thought that you have to develop yourself and gain more knowledge and gain more training and stuff. I found out I had a university degree and I spoke, like, two to three languages, and certificates, and couldn’t get a job for God’s sake. So they were telling us lies. It’s not about having qualifications, it’s about, like, being corrupt and knowing somebody who is corrupt who can get you a job. I found somebody who has less qualifications than mine and just because he knew some people he had some very good jobs. I was always very critical, even before I graduated.


Q: So you’ve always been critical of your country?

WA: Not my country. The people who are running my country.


Q: Do you think you’re more patriotic for criticizing your country and trying to improve it? Would you consider yourself patriotic?

WA: That’s for other people to call me.


Q:How would you describe yourself?

WA: Not optimistic, but still if I was not I wouldn’t be working on changing stuff. If I were pessimistic I could have stopped working altogether and left the country and emigrated and started a family somewhere else. But I’m still here; that must mean something. Even if I deny it, I do desperately hope things will change. I hope at least. There is still hope.


Q: What do you want to tell our generation?

WA: You are the problem, the United States. You guys are all studying now business and engineering and chemicals, and stuff, stuff that are really radical. But nobody’s studying literature and philosophy and these arts, these kinds of arts. This is really horrible in my opinion. People are studying things that will get them jobs and get them money. This is what your regime really wants, people that are running your country want: your regime, your government, the government you choose, the government you vote for. Your democracy! They’re controlling you! The media, the corporations, and business, the corrupt people in politics. They want you to be practical and not to think and not to criticize them, not to be philosophical, not to make your mind work. They had this is in the 70s and this made them really worried: the hippies and the beat generation, people who thought and were really critical of the government, and thought the Vietnam war was wrong, and started these sit-ins and demonstrations and Woodstock festivals, and music, and rock, and stuff like that. Maybe it sounds funny now but your government made them look like that. They made them look funny. They made them look like people who were only after free sex and smoking and LSD and stuff like that. But this is not the truth. Most people were really thinking about their country and the future of their country now. There is something really wrong, it’s odd. This is not the case now. Most people are not studying philosophy, arts. I think by studying these arts, we can change the world.

Young people should study the history of the world so as not to repeat the same mistakes over and over again. WWI, WWII, Vietnam War, and then the Iraq- these are mistakes that are being repeated deliberately because some people are making money out of it, believe it or not. Some people are making HUGE bucks out of it. So people should learn history, should learn philosophy, should make their mind work; not be like lab rats and be like cogs in a machine that only move the machine that never works, that never stop to think, that never stops to think or reflect. Maybe I am using, like, communist terminology here, but I am not a communist.


Q: So we have this blog right? It’s a human rights blog, and human rights issues actually from a creative standpoint: so we have people who submit literature, and photos, and poetry, and songs? What tips do you have for this blog?

WA: My approach was to address the young people, no matter how trivial I think they are and no matter how I think that their education or knowledge is inferior. I try to talk to them in their own knowledge. I try to attract young people in their own language and tell them that first we understand them, and second that we are interested in having a conversation with you. Don’t make them feel intimidated, don’t make them think that you are an elitist. You know, this is a problem here in Egypt because some people were speaking in classical Arabic, and they have this sophisticated language, and using these expressions all the time that young people maybe don’t understand and they don’t care to understand those issues that they are discussing. That’s why I’m using obscenity and slang language in my blog. It’s actually what provokes people to interact, and understand, and absorb what I’m telling them. Also, always try to support what you’re saying with pictures and videos and stuff like that – multimedia, it gives you more legitimacy. And never censor people or opinions – you can always censor offenses; like towards your mother and so on and sister and so on and so on.


(Q:) That hasn’t happened to us yet.

WA: Well, maybe people have more respect for your mother, and your mothers’ sexual organs. [Laughs.]


(Q:) Well, we won’t censor that. We don’t censor.

WA: [Smiles] Inshallah. [Arabic for God willing.]

No Where to Run

by Sarika Arya

The girl was running into the police station. On the way back from work, stuck in muid-afternoon traffic, I noticed her through the window of my taxi: she was wearing a light pink hijab, a long-sleeve purple t-shirt, and jeans in spite of the heat, symbolizing her devoutness to Islam. She ran up the stairs into the white dilapidated police office, sliding past the men (she was the only woman there) who were hovering around outside – narrowly escaping touching any of them, not even allowing her body to brush them accidentally, in her rush to find sanctuary inside. But there is no guarantee that sanctuary, let alone justice, is what she got. In Egypt, the human rights culture is not so much of zero tolerance, but zero accountability.



According to a 2008 US State Department human rights report on Egypt, the Egyptian People's Assembly (the popularly-elected representatives of the Egyptian parliament), discharged 1,164 lower – ranking policemen for misconduct and abuse of power. The same report documents a shocking case in which a 13 year- old was electrocuted by a detective, a 15 year- old was tear- gassed by a policeman, and a human rights activist and her colleague were physically assaulted by a policeman in a courtroom where they were seeking justice for a torture victim. In fact, in this incident, one victim received head injuries so serious that he remained unconscious for about 30 minutes.

The total degeneration of civil society in Egypt poses a serious threat to human rights. Consider the most basic scenario: a woman walking on the street. Even a fully-covered girl is at risk for sexual harassment. According to the Egyptian Centre for Women's Rights, 69% of sexual harassment occurs on the street and 42 % in public places (22% is on the beach and 6% at the workplace.). In 2008, the Centre surveyed 1,010 Egyptian women, of whom 83% reported they had been sexually harassed. Often times, it is those who are supposed to be upholding the law: traffic wardens, policemen, soldiers – men in uniform – who are committing this abuse. An American friend of mine in Cairo recalled being whistled at by a police officer, "I turned around, and said to him in Arabic, 'Do you have any dignity? You should be ashamed of yourself. You're a policeman." He was so shocked that this blue- eyed, blond- haired, American woman was reprimanding him in Arabic, that he was ashamed. But often times it is not as easy or even safe to respond. My two girlfriends and I walked past a group of train conductors lounging in Ramses Station, only to be whistled at, tongues clicking, men muttering "You're very beautiful," over and over in Arabic. We had another uncomfortable experience when a truck full to bursting with policemen all carrying handguns rattled down the street, clicks, whistles, and catcalls following the women who passed it. If these men hadn't been speaking Arabic, I would have thought the truck was full of sick chickens: it both looked and sounded like it anyways, what with all the clucking and purring.

When civil servants are the very perpetrators of abuse, when even the courtroom – which is supposed to be a place of justice – becomes a torture chamber, and when the elected government suspiciously receives 88% of the vote, how can human rights enforcement ever be taken seriously? The total lack of accountability manifests itself in complete apathy to and acceptance of the bleak human rights situation.

Think of this: it is not uncommon for a sexually harassed woman to blame herself for the ogling stares that make her uncomfortable, the whistles that haunt her, and even the grabbing hands that may lead to her self-imposed house arrest and isolation from the rest of society.

Respect for human rights is only as strong as respect for the legal authority that mandates those rights in the first place. While Egypt has a constitution, legal restraints that technically prevent most human rights abuses from occurring, and even pro-human rights government projects (like pamphlets that use Islam to discourage sexual harassment – particularly targeting men since, according to a ECW report, 62% of men surveyed admitted to engaging in harassment), there is still a human rights- resistant mentality, especially because this has been the norm for so long. Some even classify it as lethargy: a laziness to change one's behavior; submissiveness to human rights abuse that one can not only become accustomed to but also even profit from.

My flat mate, Meredith, and I, fed-up with being unable to walk down the streets without someone nearby whispering, "Hello Seniorita," even if we looked our grungiest selves, found ourselves eating our feelings of frustration at an Italian restaurant often frequented by expats. Shortly after the waiter took our order, Abhinav and Anna, two foreigners at the table next to us, engaged us in some friendly conversation about their lives as managers (of finance and housekeeping, respectively) for a certain world-renowned five- star hotel in Cairo. (We were asked not to reveal their names or the name of the hotel, so as not to risk their jobs or give the hotel bad publicity.) Meredith and I vented a lot about our frustration at being mistreated because of our gender, wondering what could possibly be the root cause of this problem and marveling at the limited efforts undertaken to prevent it and enforce the law.

Abhinav and Anna sympathized with us. Abhinav remembered a time when a male coworker, married and in his 40s, giggled to him about a girl's cleavage. Abhinav was shocked that in a professional workspace, high school humor was considered mature and funny. Moreover, there is no guaranteed way to deter such behavior: Abhinav's predecessor was fired for reprimanding an employee over a similar issue. As it turned out, the employee's connections (despite his lowly job) were good enough to secure his boss's immediate removal.

But Abhinav had an even more shocking story for us. Here is a brief summary of the legal status of prostitution in Egypt, as described by the US State Department report about human rights in Egypt in 2008:

“Prostitution and sex tourism were illegal but continued to occur, particularly in Cairo and Alexandria. Prostitution existed in cities and in some rural areas. Sex tourism existed in Luxor and Sharm El-Sheikh. Street children were subject to prostitution. Most sex tourists came from Europe and the Gulf.”

Despite its prohibition, like so many other things in Egypt, the weak enforcement, lack of accountability, and the social norm to operate on a who-knows-who basis, means that it continues, even on the grounds of a five- star family hotel. There, married men, pimps, and the ‘goods on sale’ gather to exchange numbers, money, and make the final deals –but all under the guise of meeting new people. Amused by our amazement, Abhinav and Anna invited us to the famous casino and then the outdoor café at the hotel to do some untraditional bird- watching, “Come see for yourselves.”

It’s high season for prostitution in Egypt: Gulf men (Arabs from the oil-rich Gulf states) flock to vacation spots in the relatively cooler northern part of the Middle East, while their wives and children jet set off for fun times in Europe: shopping at Harrods, Euro Disney, and other equally liberal family alternatives. This particular 5- star hotel in the heart of Cairo is no exception to these summer patterns. Our guides, our insiders into this forbidden world, led us to the hotel casino, usually a hotspot for prostitutes and particularly non-Egyptian prostitutes, since only foreigners are allowed into the casino (gambling is illegal by Islam, which is the main influence on Egyptian law). But the casino was dead. Meredith and I became skeptical but they told us it was early, so we decided to just wait it out at the café.

The café was full of Gulf men dressed in their traditional garb, white robes (called thobes), red and white checkered headscarves encircled with black rope, smoking shisha, and sipping Turkish coffee. The ‘Gulfies’ outnumbered the other foreign visitors who were scattered across the outdoor café and Egyptian themed restaurant and enjoying the supposedly family- friendly atmosphere, oblivious to the underground red light district that was slowly evolving around them. We sat in the center of the café. Gulf men sat close by at the tables all around us, and although it was very hot and humid they looked comfortable. We waited. It was nearly 10:30pm. Suddenly, Anna nudged us, indiscreetly nodding her head towards a girl walking by, muttering, “Look, there’s one.”

Besides us strolled no, strutted, a girl with straight, shiny, black hair extensions, which framed a powdered- white face. Her eyes were entrenched in dark eyeliner and her lips were painted a bright ruby red. She wore tight jeans with sparkles embedded on the back pockets (what we came to realize was staple clothing for most of the alleged prostitutes) and a black corset on top of a thin black see- through top. Her visibly uncomfortable high heels clackity- clacked on the cement in sync with the swaying of her hips. She was an expert. It was clear that she was using the moment walking past the line of tables occupied by Gulf men, potential customers, to show-off the commodity she had to offer: to model herself. The men engaged in this window- shopping, and we watched them, their eyes following her hungrily as the waiter seated her in full view of them. In a few moments she is approached by a Gulf man who, to the unsuspecting eye would just appear to be making conversation with a fellow hotel guest (who just has some bad fashion sense) who he happens to know. But it is just an act.

In fact, much of this society wears a costume. We learn that many hotels experience a similar prostitution problem, but there is something striking about the scenery of the hotel in question. It is beautifully crafted: under gilded terraces encrusted with the Muslim star and crescent, these men, having just returned from Saturday night prays, buy some women and indulge in infidelity. They appear to be puritanical, in their sparkling white robes, they travel from the most Islamic of states, but they betray the very traditions they enforce at home without (it seems) blinking an eye, a pang of remorse, or feelings of guilt under God’s all powerful and ever watchful being.

It suddenly becomes evident that the Gulf men next to us are engaged in a telephone conversation with a lady sitting across the aisle. The woman has pencil thin eyebrows that appear to be drawn on, straight brown hair, and a corset that is squeezing her artificially enlarged breasts – “That’s one,” whispers Anna, excitedly. Throughout the conversation, the woman is making hand gestures; it is clear they are negotiating a price. Then, the phones turn off, and the man gets up, leaving his friend at the table, and makes his way straight towards her under the guise of making friendly conversation. He has a limp: one foot drags behind him, and as he nears her table he cracks a toothy smile, wipes his sweaty brow, and takes out a wallet from his back pocket. He shakes her hand in introduction, sits down, and says something that makes her bellow with laughter. They share some shisha, shake hands again, and continue talking: a deal has been struck.

The girl will sleep comfortably tonight in the hotel. Abhinav and Anna assure us that the waiters and hotel staff know exactly what’s going on. In fact, both have unintentionally brushed shoulders with prostitutes late in the night. Anna recalled a girl knocking on her door at one in the morning, mistaking it for her customer’s. Abhinav received several phone calls from a girl using the house phones in the hotel lobby late one night, selling herself via conversation, searching desperately for a customer. Unsurprisingly, most of the hotel security are in on the business: either engaging in the prostitution themselves or receiving a small commission from the prostitutes and pimps for letting them break into the hotel market and use the hotel grounds. Moreover, it would be nearly impossible for anyone to prove prostitution was even occurring: anyone could excuse the behavior as two innocent people meeting and ‘having fun.’ It could also be very dangerous for any one individual to get involved– especially if the prostitution turned out to be part of a greater sex trafficking scheme, which the police were beneficiaries of. This is not an unlikely scenario. It remains a don't ask- don't tell policy.

A very beautiful girl, who appeared to be in her twenties, with long brown hair, a tight grey t-shirt, jeans, and a black belt with the word’s ‘Fire’ encrusted on the buckle, strides over to an overweight Gulf man in jeans, green shirt, and glasses. He is sitting with a more traditionally dressed Gulfie and a young boy who is no older than her. The Gulf man in green has been whistling at her for about ten minutes, and is thrilled that he has successfully captured her attention, giving her a greasy smile when she shakes his hand as if she were businesswoman in an office instead of a prostitute trespassing in a hotel. He handles the entire transaction: it is clear that he has done this before. Despite coming from (and probably doing his utmost to promote) a culture where men and women can’t even bump into each other on the street without making one another feel uncomfortable, he has no qualms in brushing a pudgy finger across her belt, along her hip, “Shu hada ‘Fire’?” (What is this ‘Fire’?) I notice, that despite her profession, she pulls her shirt down uncomfortably, covering her exposed midriff and crossing her arms.

She’s incredibly young. No wonder she is uncomfortable. Anna tells us it is not uncommon to see fourteen and sixteen year old girls here, trying to make a dime. A woman in an abaya, a black robe traditionally worn by more religious Muslim women, walks by. Her lack of head covering, says Anna, is a surefire signal that she is actually a prostitute. Apparently it is now fashionable for prostitutes to wear some religious symbols, as it makes them even more alluring. One woman has been wondering the café relentlessly, for over an hour, looking for a buyer. Her weight is working against her: she is obese, and it is heartbreaking to watch her, her eyes desperately searching, searching, searching, circled in sad eyeliner. She looks like a lost clown.

Meredith and I ask Abhinav and Anna, What about STDs, STIs, AIDS? “Who knows?” they say. This is a dangerous, undocumented, and unregulated world, which the law enforcement itself has no shame participating in and to some extent, even facilitating and sponsoring. On the other hand, Abhinav tells us a story about a prostitute who got married. Her husband remains unaware of her past - how? Well, the general lack of sex education meant that she could turn off the lights and do anything (effectively nothing) with her young customers, and convince them it was sex, even if it wasn't. "You would think they would naturally understand that she had cheated them," Abhinav says, "But some, especially the young and uneducated, have no idea." On another occassion, Anna got word through one of her housekeepers that there was blood on the bedsheets in a hotel room. It was revealed that the room had been used by a couple who had been married in the hotel the previous night. Anna and Abhinav assumed the woman had been the unfortuante victim of violent abuse. It was later found out that the woman's new husband had mistakently sent her to the hospital because he did not realize that bleeding was possible, and even normal, when a woman loses her virgnity.

The night is drawing to an end, and we decide to stop by the casino on our way out. It’s close to midnight now, and the gambling tables are buzzing. We run into the obese woman, and she scowls at us, embarrassed that we seem to know her true identity. But she is also frustrated: two hours ago, the casino would not have carried so much competition. But now, as soon as we enter, we see two women, clearly prostitutes, chain- smoking cigarettes on the red velvet couch at the door, waiting to snag a man looking to splurge his winnings. “Enjoy Cairo,” says the doormen, smiling at us warmly as we leave, and using the traditional Islamic salutation to say goodbye, “Masalaam,” which literally means, “With peace.”

We are overwhelmed: the society is contradictory, hypocritical, disordered, has weak law enforcement but for almost thirty years has been at the mercy of an authoritarian ruler who claims to be president of a democracy, it is at once oppressive of women, but also preaches Islam, which at one point was the foremost feminist movements in the world. As we leave the hotel and the tourist police give us the eye, probably fighting the urge to whistle at us, two appropriately-dressed young girls walking quickly with their heads bowed, not speaking, we wonder – what did we expect?

(Almost) In Conversation with: Wael Abbas

by Sarika Arya

Wael Abbas has received awards from CNN, the BBC, and Human Rights Watch for his uncensored, honest, and humanitarian blogging, which speaks the truth about human rights atrocities committed by the Egyptian government. His posts dwell deep into Egypt's human rights abyss: exposing the most cruel and inhumane aspects of Egyptian society that are usually ignored by the oridnary people and government alike. But bloggers beware. When he posted a video of an Egyptian bus driver being sodomized with a stick by Egyptian police, Wael temporarily had his Youtube and Yahoo account suspended. His Facebook has been deactivated. His strong opinions (on his blog, he compares President Obama's tactics to reach out to the Muslim world, with the Muslim brotherhood) attract international readers and have the capacity to upset (and inspire) a nation not accustomed to practicing its right to freedom of expression. The YJHR intended to have an interview with Wael Abbas, the notorious Egyptian blogger, today (Thursday), after he returned from a workshop in Sweden. But yesterday our boss at the National Council for Human Rights in Egypt (and a friend of Wael's) notified us via Facebook chat of some disturbing news that may prevent us from securing the interview. So, for now, we are only almost in conversation with Wael Abbas.

1:58pm Fatima*:
Sarika!

1:58pm Sarika:
Yes!

1:59pm Fatima:
The blogger I told you about
Is held in cairo airport
!!!



1:59pm Sarika:
He was arrested???!!

1:59pm Fatima:
yes

1:59pm Sarika:
WHAT
why? will he be released??
what can we do?

1:59pm Fatima:
and they have his labtop

2:00pm Sarika:
oh my goodness!!! That's crazy how did you find out

2:00pm Fatima:
twitter

2:02pm Fatima:
www.twitter.com/waelabbas

2:02pm Sarika:
wait so what happens now? has he been arrested before?

2:04pm Fatima:
check the link

2:05pm Sarika:
this is uneblieavble!

2:06pm Fatima:
welcome to the reality

2:06pm Sarika:
why was he arrested?????

2:07pm Fatima:
am not sure
but they are just Harrasing him I guess
but takin his labtop is serious

2:08pm Sarika:
so this is what happens when there is no freedom of expression?

2:12pm Fatima:
yes this is the reality we are living in,

2:14pm Sarika:
!!
how can they arrest someone so famous
he is going to be released. he has to be – it would hurt the government so much

Wael's Blog (الوعى المصرى = Egyptian awareness)

*This name has been changed for privacy reasons.

In Conversation With: Ambassador (AMB) Mokhles Kotb

Contributed by Sarika Arya

Ambassador (AMB) Mokhles Kotb is a former ambassador and currently serving as Secretary General for the National Council for Human Rights (NCHR) in Egypt. His work has taken him on a long professional journey from North Korea to Tunisia, passing by the office of Yasser Arafat. Council members look to him as a Godfather who arrives at his office everyday at 7AM. Bright and early, he sat down with the Journal for about an hour, people running in and out of his office asking him questions, handing him papers, but all the while he remained focused, eager to share 40 years of experience and knowledge.


AMB: When you ask me your questions, you should take into consideration that I was serving as an ambassador until 2000 and the issues of human rights were not what we feel now. The issues of human rights started to emerge at the end of the last century, and did not concern many countries as they do now. This should be between parentheses.


Q: To which countries have you been the ambassador? What do you do exactly?

AMB: First of all I was in the diplomatic field for 40 years, and I served in so many countries. For example, I worked in Pyongyang, in the years of '75 to '76 with Kim Jong-il there (and in China was Mao Zedong, the Historical Chief of China), only to give and compare the life there. The government- the Egyptian authority- gave us only one day every month to go to China. It looked like a paradise in comparison to Pyongyang; this is just to give you a general idea of how our life was there. At that time I got married and had two little daughters. The problem was that there were no schools except in the Russian embassy. So it was very difficult; our life there was very difficult. My wife had to teach my two daughters until I finished work in the embassy. All the foreigners at the time were around 50% of the people and most of them were either diplomats or ambassadors, especially because there were 13 embassies and some communist ambassadors. The diplomatic community was no more than 50%; therefore, it was quite common to have a diplomatic club where you can find some billiard tables and a small place for dinner and that is it. It was quite normal that one driver from one embassy would explain the billiard game to the Russian ambassador.


After that, well… according to the tradition of diplomatic work in Egypt we should go 4 years abroad and 2 years in the country of origin, in order not to have any roots in any country. Then, I was appointed to go to Paris, then Brussels, and later I returned back for a second term to Paris. The first time I was in Paris was '83 and '84, I was in Brussels from '87 to '91, and Paris another time from '92 to '95. During this time I served as the head of the delegation in France due to the death of the ambassador. Additionally, I served in Tunisia for 7 years as an ambassador and dean of the diplomatic mission. When I came back to Egypt, I became the President of the Foreign Affairs’ Relations. Thereafter, Dr. Boutros Ghali appointed me to work in the National Council for Human Rights. For your information, Dr. Boutros Ghali was my professor at my university in the faculty of economics and political science twice: once when I was an undergraduate pursuing my bachelor and the second time when I was studying for my masters degree. After I came back from Paris, I worked in his cabinet from '84 to '87. I remember he was a candidate for the parliament in Egypt and I was his director of his campaign to be elected. I always remember when we had to go to visit these little streets and poor districts in order to meet with our constituencies. I used to work with Dr. Boutros Ghali for so many years, so when he was nominated as Chairman of the National Council for Human rights (NCHR), he proposed to appoint me as the Secretary General, then automatically the board approved his request, and I started my work from February 2004 till now.

So this was the professional part, but my experience goes back to the Egyptian defeat by Israel in 1967. At that time, I was still an undergraduate pursuing my bachelors degree at the university. Then, later, I had to do my military service, as it was the norm in Egypt for all young people. Normally, it was one year, 12 months, however, due to the prevailing circumstances, I had to stay in my conscription for 7 years, getting promoted from being a soldier to a corporal, and finally to a sergeant.


Q: Did you serve in the October 1973 War?

AMB: Yes, I did. After the defeat in 1967, Egypt had two small areas in Sinai, where I had to spend more than 3 to 4 years. It was a very hard time for me, especially because I had already gotten married and had had my two little daughters by the time when I was in Sinai. I was obliged to stay there for 25 days per month and then to come back to Cairo to stay with my family and daughters. Frankly speaking, it was a very hard time for all my generation. That is why we are all convinced of peace when we speak about it. For us, peace is neither a choice, nor a strategy, nor a principle. It comes at a price for all those who suffer in severe circumstances, and is a valid motive to struggle for. All my generation is convinced that war should never take place again, there must be peace, and they have to struggle to keep such peace and maintain stability. As I said before, “No more war.”

At this point in the interview, he showed me all his decorations and honors in his time as ambassador. Trinkets, medals, and gold stars from past presidents of America and France (among others), and a remarkable photo of him alone with President Arafat –“This is my life,” he said, as he sat back at his desk.


Q: Did you see Obama speak?

AMB: Yes, I did. Actually, we were all invited to attend his speech at Cairo University; but unfortunately, it was very difficult for everyone in the council to attend since it is impossible to have no one in the office.

Q: What did you think about his speech?

AMB: Do you want to speak very frankly?


(Q): Yes.

AMB: First of all, I noticed from his inaugural speech as well as his first speeches after being nominated as President that he didn’t mention anything related to the Palestinian- Israeli conflict; although I knew later that he had spoken on the phone with President Mubarak and with Palestinian President Mahmud Abbas. However, being an ambassador and after working in the diplomatic field, I can tell that President Obama has avoided mentioning the Palestinian- Israeli conflict; despite the fact that he has to make some phone calls from time to time to both parties.

Second, I didn’t get his point when he directed his speech to the Muslim world. I don’t understand the idea behind splitting the world into Muslim, Christian, and Jewish. He should have spoken about states and states’ relations or even international relations among states. By referring to the Muslim world, this can generate many problems in terms of differentiating between Muslims in different regions in the world like, for example, Muslims in Indonesia, in Mauritania, and in Egypt. I think from a personal perspective this is a very controversial issue.

My third observation about his speech is the path that the US will follow to solve the Palestinian- Israeli conflict. The notion of the two- state solution for achieving peace between the two conflicted parties is not a new policy, but the problem is in the course of action of the US towards Israel. We already know that the bonds between the US and Israel are unbreakable and this is what the speech has emphasized and confirmed, but on the other hand, President Obama has also mentioned that Israeli settlements have to be stopped and banned. Concerning the Islamic Resistance Movement “Hamas,” I noticed that nothing was mentioned about it. Specifically, whether it is a terrorist organization or not. We already know that Hamas is on the list of known terrorist organizations. Ultimately, I think that Obama is eager and keen to change and improve the world’s perception vis-à-vis the United States. He also has the goodwill to achieve such a challenging goal.

Q: Do you think that it’s good or bad he didn’t refer to Hamas as a "terrorist organization"?

AMB: Actually, this issue is very ambiguous and America must be crystal clear while determining a policy. From my perspective, I think there must be a dialogue with Hamas to reach a mid-point in order to end the segregation between the West Bank and Gaza Strip and to fill the gap between the Palestinian authority and Hamas. I think it is now time to have one Palestinian state and to reunite all Palestinians together. Hamas also has to declare its full support with the establishment of one strong and effective state that works for the benefit of the Palestinian citizen. The mutual talks between Hamas and Fatah were recently restored and negotiations have taken place between the two in the aim of reaching a final solution, which is possible in the sense of supporting the two-state solution- as long as both parties continue to be united.


Q: Do you think that peace is possible in your life time?

AMB: Definitely, as I mentioned before, all my generation has suffered a lot in the wars from 1948 till 1973. If you ever thought of visiting every single village in Upper Egypt, you might find that there is at least one who died or became handicapped in almost each family. Everyone has suffered in this period of time. That is why, we believe in peace as the real strategy and we should accept it.

Second, due to many economic problems, I think we have to save our money for our needs in order to achieve a certain level of welfare for the Egyptian population that reaches, based on the latest statistics, to 80 million citizens. Welfare in Egypt requires us to build new schools, advanced hospitals, as well as to provide more food stuff and economic assistance. Therefore, peace is not only a strategy, but it has a psychological aspect entrenched in the life of all Egyptians. Egypt still needs the incoming flux of tourists that visit the country each year and the huge amount of revenues that comes into our economy as a result, representing 9 billion dollars each year. Egypt needs stability to save such foreign income as well as the Suez Canal revenues. If we couldn’t maintain our stability, Arab labor wouldn’t be able to work in the country and send their remittances back to their families. That is why peace and stability are necessary for our lives.

Q: In the past what capacity, in your role as ambassador, did you deal with human rights?

AMB: As I mentioned before, in the past human rights were not on the list of priorities. That is why it is difficult when we talk with the Americans about such issues. Because all of your history is 233 years. For us, it is 7000 years. For us, the concept of time is very different. So we need time to struggle towards democracy, to move for democracy. We need this time. It is relative. The concept of time is very different. That’s one thing.

Also, the main problem in Egypt is mentality. The lack of mentality for human rights culture. You know? The problem is the lack of mentality to grasp the culture of human rights. I am totally aware that it is a critical issue because in the West it is easier to find a job or solve your problems than here in Egypt. The Western mind can easily comprehend the culture of human rights, and better than us.

One of our main problems in Egypt, which represents the main task of the council, is the promotion of a human rights culture. As our first step, we started by analyzing and gathering information about the actual status of human rights in school curricula and in television programs. We had to refer back to our already established independent committees to help us in analyzing the curricula that may affect the human rights culture in Egypt. These independent committees have spent only three years to purify and eliminate all the curriculum materials that may negatively affect the culture of human rights. During the three years, we have studied 100 curricula and, to our surprise, the government has accepted our study and encouraged us to proceed in our way and improve what we can change.

So, what we are doing now is changing. This process will take another three years in order to finish the 100 curricula. The process of changing consists of eliminating what is against human rights values and adding some new values like citizenship. This process is expected to be finished by the end of 2012. This study is targeting the new generation starting from the primary level passing by all grades including the elementary and secondary levels. To take effect will require another 15 years, when the coming generation grows up.

Parallel to this we have a good broadcast of radio. Because, as you know, the newspapers are not that good for the public opinion since we can only publish 2.3 million. For television, 95% of the families in Egypt have TV so it is very influential. So we have analyzed a lot of the radio and TV also to understand the problems of the human rights culture. For this, I was invited to be Secretary General of a board [relating to media] and to be President of the Committee on Human Rights and Citizenship to see what is right and what can be better. It is a very long process.

What do we target? We target the mayor of the villages. It’s not like your country where there is a mayor of a big city. No. We have 40,000 villages and each village has a mayor. So the mayor has his traditions and so on and so forth. The mayor is very important and very influential in his village. If you prepare a good mayor, you will have a good village. You will have more percentage of the people going to elections and respecting human rights and so on and so forth. So it is one of the things we target, and also it [takes] a very long time for us.


Q: Can you tell me more about what you found in the curricula that violated human rights?

AMB: In resume, we find like this, that the boys are better than the girls. This is always indirect in character. Always in the books, you have two characters: there is Samir [the boy] and his sister is Samira [the girl]. Always in this book Samir takes the hand of his sister to cross the street. Always. Always Samir. Never Samira. Always Samir and Samira go to school and come back to the house. Samira goes directly to her mother to help her wash the dishes, and so on and so forth. Never Samir is doing dish washing. Okay? So, from this very young generation, there is always this discrimination or superiority of Samir. So if you are six years old and have this character for Samir, you should, by definition, well- you will be, superior to the girl. Okay. Another thing, if we have something bad it's related to black. It means that the black dog always bites Samira. The black dog. Never the white dog. Only the black dog. So it is also another kind of discrimination.

Also, another discrimination, indirectly, is that Samir is a very good boy: he goes to make his prayer in a Muslim way, in a good Muslim way. So, always a Muslim is better than the others. So that too is discriminatory: man and woman, black and white, Muslim and others.


Q: So the idea is that if you are a boy, fair-skinned, and Muslim, you’re superior?

AMB: Well, so, this is from years of special education from ’71 of Sadat until now. We have this way, that Muslim way of Sadat, to encourage the Muslims. And so we have the results.


(Q): It’s amazing that you were able to find the seeds of human rights violations in such tiny details. It’s very small.

AMB: It’s very very important. As I told you, it was an independent high level committee they took 3 years to study this.


(Q): You know, in the states, we have similar distinctions in textbooks between boys and girls, and especially black and white. But you never think that the black dog biting someone’s hand, instead of the white one, can contribute to human rights violations in the future.

AMB: Yes, yes. Well, you can see the results.


Q: How do politics influence human rights – not only in Egypt, but also in the Middle East?

AMB: You know in the Middle East, we always need a good government, or ministers, or presidents that are very influential. Because normally, the public opinion, normally, comes after what the president says and so forth. Not the other way. Always the government influences the public opinion. Normally at least. So it is important that the government takes the important, the necessary steps, to build human rights education and human rights culture and so forth. That is very important.

The problem in the third world, and Egypt, and some other Arab countries, is the lack of human rights culture actually. This is the main problem. You can change the laws and consider or even establish some human rights legislation. Okay. But to practice it is another thing. The way to practice it is another thing. So if you have this mentality, this difference between man and woman – I’ll give you an example: If a man is in the commissary of the police and at night a lady comes and says, “I was robbed by a thief,” when he sees this lady he wonders, “Why was this woman at 12 o’clock in the streets? At midnight?” There is an idea that if she was a good woman she must be in the house. It cannot be that she is working or that she is going home: she is stuck in this world and it is possible that she will be accused. It is a problem. We need more of a human rights culture.


Q: Why do you think there is a lack of human rights culture in this part of the world?

AMB: The cultural system, educational system, the television system. All of this is a real problem.


Q: What are the challenges of being a quasi-governmental organization that does human rights work, rather than an NGO?

AMB: You know, as I told you, this lack of mentality of human rights, it affects also the work of the NGOs. And some NGOs are not doing good work, according to the public opinion. Some public opinion sees the NGOs as just taking money away from donors or something like this. Other communities and people have a lack of culture of human rights, and the thing is, it is not that all NGOs are working in the human rights field. No. We have 20,000 NGOs in Egypt: some of them are good NGOs, some of them are NGOs that are looking just to make benefits. So, in the traditional culture of the Egyptian, it is not a good way to work. There is mistrust of NGOs. The knowledge and culture of NGOs takes time. And some NGOs give bad examples, and give themselves a negative idea.

Concerning our council, it was the result of the United States and was established in a meeting in Vienna in 1993 and it must be a 100% independent of the government. The public opinion doesn’t accept this. They think this building, the NCHR, is dictated from abroad, dictated from Bush, or that it is a façade of the government so that it looks like they care about human rights- is a piece, or it is just a performance.


Q: So, if you change the curriculum you can affect people when they are very young to have a human rights culture?

AMB: Yes, yes.


Q: But, how do you change the minds of government officials and older people?

AMB: So we are working in parallel. We work with the youth and we work in parallel with others in a special training course or a special course with the government. It should be taken into consideration that we now have our fifth report. Before this, no one took the care and no one was concerned with human rights. And now that we have published this report, now we are in a dialogue with the government and the public opinion, and the government should reply according to this report.

We have a special committee headed by ministers and each minister should send his reply to his prime minister: agriculture, education, everything in all fields. And we are waiting the comment of the government now. It means that [there is] something new in the government. Something new is coming now. Something new. For five years the NCHR has been working concerning human rights. But it is not one way: the government should give reply to our concerns and observations in the report. This is something new concerning human rights that has never been done before in Egypt since these five years. So something is going in a good way – it is not a fast track as Americans always have. (They work fast, always fast.) Instead, it will take time.


Q: What difficulties have you had with the government when you give them your report, and how do you deal with these difficulties?

AMB: Well, our difficulties, if I should be very clear, our difficulties are with the public opinion, NGOs, and populations. This gap of human rights culture is our main difficulty. The government now has the report and should reply. It is very easy to work with government, but not so easy with the public opinion.


Q: You said that the government is not the problem, that the public opinion is. In working with the Council, I’ve noticed that there are some human rights issues that the Council takes a unique stance on that are more in line with the government: What is the council's feelings on the death penalty, freedom of expression, and the State of Emergency? Are certain human rights issues undermined or tabled?

AMB: It is very difficult to speak with public opinion and it needs time. Concerning what you mention, from day one we asked to finish with the emergency state and if there would be a new law against terrorists it must have this balance: it must have freedom between persons and citizens and security of the country. This has always been our position and we’re struggling to do this. Also we say to the government that we’re not too convinced to continue this emergency state, and so they should put it to an end. And according to the government, they will do this by 2010. They should present the anti-terrorist law to finish with this by May 2010 because according to the government the emergency law is only to contain terrorists, and crime organizations, or gangs. So, we told them that we should finish this. And we hope that in May…we’re waiting to see something more democratic… a new proposal to have all the means to protect human rights.

Concerning the expression of speech. I don’t know… You can go to the streets and see 15 opposition papers accusing everyone, even insulting them. So it will take some time. And also, we should have a norm for freedom of expression. It doesn’t mean that I should insult and you insult me. We are in a code of conduct, we are in a period of transformation: it will take time… we are going in the main stream of this.

Concerning the death penalty, we have a point of view in the council that we should put an end to this. But still there is opposition in the public opinion according to some organizations, Islamic organizations, and so on. So the first step is to eliminate the crime number to 2 or 3 before we finish this – I mean, according to the current law, there are 70 possible crimes that are punishable by death. Even if you’re in a gang. I know that this never actually leads to death, but it is there. But, we are in dialogue. We should change: first to eliminate these crimes by 2 or 3, before complete elimination. As you know, in your country there are many states that are struggling to eliminate it. We are struggling with you to eliminate it.


Q: What I find really interesting you are right that in the states you can see the same human rights problems: the terrorist laws, freedom of expression, and the death penalty that face Egypt also effect the USA. So there are more similarities between your state and mine.

AMB: Yes, but in the states you are a very sophisticated country, you have many rights. Here, you can go to poorer states and districts, you go to the poorer areas, and who cares about human rights issue? They want to work and eat. They do not even have clean water. Even if we receive 20,000 complaints this year, we can say 70% are complaints concerning socioeconomic problems. The population needs to work, to eat, to fetch jobs. This is the real problem for human rights. For this I say that stability and peace is a must for Egyptians and the area. For the Palestinians, Israelis, and Jordanians also we need a means to go to in order to make some progress in the daily lives of the population.


Q: Why have you devoted so much of your life to diplomacy and human rights? What’s the appeal for you?

AMB: You know, well as I told you, according to my generation we were forced to go into obligatory military service for 7 years. I have a brother who was an officer in 1956 who was shot by planes… was shot by Israeli planes. So you know, all this generation who suffered from war and problems, we need, for the sake of our population, for Egyptians, for the sake of our families, we need stability, we need peace. So I say, in every single village we know how the population suffered from this, from the war. All of us we know this. For this we are trying to work with peace. Peace is a must for us. If we have peace and stability, then the standard of life of the Egyptian will get better. So it is related. Peace is a very important base for human rights action. Because, if we’re faced with any terrorist action in Sinai, Israel, in Jordan, if a very horrible accident happens, it will directly affect the tourism in this country. As I told you the profits of tourism are 9 billion dollars. So 9 billion dollars: it will give me a job, it will give my daughters a good means of education, it will give hospitals... If you have lack of such money, how do you promote human rights in the widest idea: to give jobs, buildings, hospitals, and so on? So human rights are related in our area with stability. So when we struggle to have peace and stability, we protect and defend human rights.


Q: What have your meetings with Palestinian and Israeli leaders been like?

AMB: [I have an Israeli friend] from Tunisia. He was the head of the first Israeli commission office in Tunisia. He speaks Arabic very well! And French and so on. He is my friend. We have met many times with Israeli officials... I have met with Perez… I have met many Israelis officials.


Q: I know the in these areas have many strong opinions about the conflict. And after the Gaza war in December, their opinions became more extreme. What are the views like in Egypt, and how can we make them more conciliatory to peace?

AMB: As I met with the Israelis I met also with the Palestinians: Arafat, Abbas, I met with many of the leaders. When they had problems they came to the headquarters in Tunisia and all of them, including Arafat, were convinced of peace. And I can say this, in the name of God, all of them want peace.

The problem with this is that Arafat and the others have some difficulties in the camp: they have some extremists here, and at the same time they are faced with the problems with Israelis. This is a real problem: when you have a good Israeli leader, and then something goes bad. But we have many steps to solve the problems. And when you put the problems of Israelis and Palestinians side-by-side, if you go into the details, 95% of all the problems (concerning settlements, Jerusalem, and so on), 95% of the problems have been discussed and have a good resolution. But sometimes one comes likes this and bombs like this- like what we saw in Gaza this past winter. When Mr. Netanyahu says “I will not face the settlements,” well I know he is in his camp and facing problems from his own people. I know this. But this is a narrow view and we must look beyond this view and develop an open mind set.

Defending human rights in instability is zero. You cannot understand this in the US or in your country. Because if you have stability you have human rights: right to food, right to eat, right to go to school, right to education, right to special needs. All this you have. The Palestinian crisis will be resolved with stability. We hope with the new area, with Obama in the states, we can have a practical steps: we can convince all the sides to say and to speak.


Q: What do you think is the greatest obstacle standing in the way of protecting human rights is around the world?

AMB: Poverty: in the sense that it can lead to a lack of awareness of human rights, where people care more about the economy than greater human rights issues. What I mean is that poverty can hurt human rights when it creates other problems like lack of education and a lack of healthcare. As a poor person, I don't care about human rights: I just want to live. So these human rights issues don't matter. I fail to see the connection between human rights and poverty, and human rights abuse continues. And we also have with this, the economic crisis. We have faced a real problem defending and concerning human rights: there is a third world, the population wants to eat, they never have good schools. For us it is a dream that you have rights like you have in your country. For the citizens in the third world to have water, to eat, to go to school, hospitalization. This is a dream. This, I think is it. Poverty, economic crisis, and how to deal with these problems. It means if I am a leader I will not go on an adventure and have war with Libya and Syria. We need stability, to feed the poor...

Consider America's debate around climate change. That is very specific to a developed country. I know in America they are very proud of biogas. Yes it was very good for the climate, but there are many thousands of poor that need this wheat and rye to eat. I know this is a contradiction to live in a good environment while others haven’t a right to eat. So you must remember this in dealing with the third world: we must make this balance. We need a world more democratic. You ask for a democracy in Egypt and Sudan, but we ask for an international democracy in the organization of the world. We need, all of us, to think together for the sake of the world.


Q: Most of the readers of the blog are students with an interest in activism and human rights and are seeking to make a sustainable change: not just to go somewhere and build a well, hoping that few more people have water, but actual sustainable and structural change in government and positions of power. What message, as someone who has done this already, do you have for those people?

AMB: It’s very difficult because I am not the Messiah or Jesus Christ, or even Obama. What I can tell all this generation is to know better about the others. Americans know about America but they do not know about Egypt, Chad, Senegal- you may not even know we have the Nile here, and what that means for our livelihood. For instance, you don’t know we are one of the poorest countries in water. We are 80 million people. Normally not to be the poorest in water, we need 1,000 cubic meters of water for each citizen. We need water, we need our means to have cooperation to change our way of life, to have water even though we are 95%, to use clean power like sun and wind – to have clean electricity. So I ask our young generation to understand more: to understand the reality and life of the others in the third world. And if they have a practical idea in this dialogue with the third world, then come here and implement it. It can help. Shukraan. [Thank you.]